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Trinity Anonymous 05/07/2022 (Sat) 19:27:38 No.10494
Why is the trinity more necessary than alternative divine nature doctrines? Like unitarianism (Judaism, Islam), or semi-polytheism (Hinduism). Even if the Father and the Son are necessary for making a complete link between the metaphysical and the material, why is the Holy Spirit deemed essential to the formula, despite no one entirely being sure what the Holy Spirit is even for?
>>10527 Don't you have a banana to shove up your ass?
>>10557 This isn't true. A person could be possessed by a demon and feel this way meanwhile actually being set on the wrong path.
>>10578 Why can't Christ be the part of God we feel, since he's already the link between worlds?
>>10613 That’s why one should always test the spirits and use discernment
>>10616 Are you forgetting it was Christ Himself who breathed the Spirit onto His apostles? Or the fact that the Spirit came over the assembled apostles on Pentecost and empowered them with its gifts? Or everything Paul said about the work of the Spirit? It’s what Scripture teaches.
>>10620 Yes and I'm using discernment through rationality. That you can't may indicate you're taken by demons. Better double check on that. >>10621 So the Holy Spirit is just parts of God that can be utilized by humans?
>>10622 I suggest you read the bible and then come back to this discussion afterwards with further questions.
>>10622 >So the Holy Spirit is just parts of God that can be utilized by humans? Yesn't.
>>10625 Where do I read on the theology of the Holy Spirit, as far as that can be done? I suspect you and everyone else on this board only knows about as much as me on the matter, based on the lack of thorough theology offered so far. >>10624 yawn
>>10627 Thanks for confirming you haven't read the bible and I can hide this thread without feeling guilty about leaving an apostate in the dark.
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>>10627 >I suspect you and everyone else on this board only knows about as much as me on the matter, based on the lack of thorough theology offered so far. The thing is a lack of insight into the Holy Spirit is heavy in the Western church because it's subordinated to the Father and the Son in Catholic theology and its derivatives including Protestantism, except perhaps in Pentecostalism who have a completely separate sphere of thought from traditional Christian theology. I posted in another thread hoping for responses from the Orthodox on this board on their pneumatology (the study of the Holy Spirit), but they appear to be away. The Eastern church seems to have a deeper focus on the effective action of the Spirit in their traditions of ascetic prayer and mystic contemplation. You asked here: >>10564 >What makes it different from LSD or shroom experiences? The Western understanding has always been that encountering the Spirit leads to ecstatic revelation, as with the Catholic saints of Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila, as well as the obsessions of Charismatic / Pentecostal Protestants about gaining the ability to speak in nonsense tongues. This is actually excluded as a mode of the Spirit's operation in the East and can even fall under what they call the sin of Prelest, spiritual delusion (if you read into it, it answers your point in >>10613). The Eastern understanding (from what I am aware of as an outsider) of the working of the Spirit is in its ability to perfect the conscience and discernment of the believer in faith and conduct, as part of the process of theosis, the achievement of (in a sense) union with God. It's also funny that you stated: >>10506 >Maybe Islam had it right by equating the Holy Spirit to the Mother Mary As it brought to mind two tangential points. The first is that Muslims allege that Christians worship idols of Gabriel, Jesus, and Mary as the Trinity, which is both nonsense but also oddly understandable if their encounters of Christianity are with Catholic or Orthodox churches (making them bedfellows with Protestant critics of religious iconography). Second, if the Mariolatry in the Catholic church is anything to go by, it basically did substitute celebrating the Spirit with celebrating Mary, and the Trinity nigh with a Father-Son dyad, inspiring your confusion.
>>10629 Presumption is a mortal sin, and you're risking damning yourself by presuming you have God's mercy, despite being full of unfounded assumptions, and acting so callous. I've read the Bible, but even if I hadn't--evident by your foolish behavior, your mediocre, superficial understanding of the Bible doesn't make you special, nor should you ever try to act like this much of a stick assed faggot about it again. 1 Cor 3:19 is generic, but still relevant for your case.
>>10639 Thank you for your effort post. I too will await our mystic ortho pal.
>>10639 >>What makes it different from LSD or shroom experiences? This post is not me.
>>10494 This >>10503 Because it is revealed. We don't decide how god is through our rational minds. God reveals himself to us as a trinity through the Church (EOC) Natural theology is a failed model. This PDF explains why.
>>10521 You can't have certainty or knowledge at all of anything without first affirming that you know the Trinity and the Holy Spirit. The foundations of knowledge are revelation. We cannot base our knowledge on limited fallable being. We need an Absolute being (God) to exist and reveal Himself for knowledge to be possible. I am not saying knowledge is impossible if you deny this, I am just saying you would be in denial of reality. I.e. your world view would be unjustified or incoherent.
>>10682 Sure but are there better supporting theological grounds for the Trinity?
>>10683 >the entirety of Biblical revelation >the tradition of the Church from the get-go >the lives and writings of the saints If this isn't enough for you, nothing will be.
>>10684 What did the saints and early church make of it? How come it's never mentioned on here or any other imageboard?
>>10685 The early church and its saints were firmly Trinitarian. Now will you see the exact terminology of three hypostases in one ousia? No, but it is implicitly there. The early church would often speak of the Trinity with various sorts of comparisons from nature, among these were (a) the sun, its rays, and light; (b) the root, the trunk, and the fruit of a tree, (c) a spring of water and the fountain and river that issue from it; (d) three candles burning simultaneously which give forth inseparable light; (e) fire, and the light and warmth that come from it; (f) mind, will and memory; (g) consciousness, knowledge, and desire; etc. The specific formula of three hypostases and one ousia was made explicit after heretics emerged who tried to overthrow crucial parts of the faith such as the deity of Christ or the deity of the Spirit. Paul wrote constantly about the Spirit, as did every other early Church Father, and they were unanimous in His divinity. These ways of speaking of the Trinity were seen to be inherently limited though, as St. Gregory the Theologian writes in one of his homilies: >I have very carefully considered this matter in my own mind, and have looked at it in every point of view, in order to find some illustration of this most important subject, but I have been unable to discover anything on earth with which to compare the nature of the Godhead. For even if I did happen upon some tiny likeness it escaped me for the most part, and left me down below with my example. I picture to myself an eye, a fountain, a river, as others have done before, to see if the first might be analogous to the Father, the second to the Son, and the third to the Holy Ghost. For in these there is no distinction in time, nor are they torn away from their connection with each other, though they seem to be parted by three personalities. But I was afraid in the first place that I should present a flow in the Godhead, incapable of standing still; and secondly that by this figure a numerical unity would be introduced. For the eye and the spring and the river are numerically one, though in different forms. >Again I thought of the sun and a ray and light. But here again there was a fear lest people should get an idea of composition in the Uncompounded Nature, such as there is in the Sun and the things that are in the Sun. And in the second place lest we should give Essence to the Father but deny Personality to the Others, and make Them only Powers of God, existing in Him and not Personal. For neither the ray nor the light is another sun, but they are only effulgences from the Sun, and qualities of His essence. And lest we should thus, as far as the illustration goes, attribute both Being and Not-being to God, which is even more monstrous... In a word, there is nothing which presents a standing point to my mind in these illustrations from which to consider the Object which I am trying to represent to myself, unless one may indulgently accept one point of the image while rejecting the rest. Finally, then, it seems best to me to let the images and the shadows go, as being deceitful and very far short of the truth; and clinging myself to the more reverent conception, and resting upon few words, using the guidance of the Holy Ghost, keeping to the end as my genuine comrade and companion the enlightenment which I have received from Him, and passing through this world to persuade all others also to the best of my power to worship Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, the One Godhead and Power. To Him belongs all glory and honour and might for ever and ever. Amen. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310231.htm
Just like God avoids blame for evil by inventing Satan, the Holy Spirit was invented to take the burden of doing bitch work for God, but it's all just God really.
>>10739 So Satan is sort of like a fourth member of the trinity? I guess that explains why four is considered an unlucky number.
>>10740 Satan is just a created angelic being who used his free will to turn against God. He's as dependent on God as you and me. To say anything more in blasphemous.
>>10739 >>10740 God created satan because he knew sin was inevitable therefore he picked the sequence of events that would play out the best in humanities favor.
>>10494 So the core of the argument I've seen so far, even from Aquinas and Feser is: >Because revelation says so bro. But revelation can be so contradictory and loosely defined that any number of philosophies could be built from scripture. >Ours is right because... I-it just is, okay? While I believe in revelation from God, I think Christian theology can do better than this.
>>10957 >While I believe in revelation from God No you don't.
god is the creator. jesus is one of his early creations and then later he created the rest of the souls(us). the holy spirit doesn't exist and it is just used as a reference for our connection with god. Europeans were following many different gods, and a few of them were following the true god. their god was referred to as [name of person]'s god. So god sent jesus to bring us all to the true god - the true god through jesus(jesus' father). that way everyone has a common name to refer to the true god as.
>>10507 >that was debunked millennia ago It hasn't been debunked in this thread
>>10507 >If you were a true Christian who had the Holy Spirit, you would realize that we live in the end times What absolute nonsense and sensualism. And of course NO ONE wants to get involved in actual end times prophecy because it's the most challenging field in the church, opinions range from 0 to 100 for a reason. People just pull out a random statement from the olivet discourse "See see bad things are happening! Nothing bad has ever happened before! Lo, the end cometh!" I thought about an end times thread but... what a mess that would be. See that's why the bumpkin Christian just says "the 70 weeks were fulfilled, All the other Old Testament prophecies I probably don't need to read and parts of the Olivet discourse that I want to be fulfilled in 70 AD were already fulfilled and there's no near and far fulfilment and Revelation is weird the rapture could happen any moment!" Well actually they don't say that they say "Muh birthing pains! LO, THE END COMETH!"
Even after the Temple was destroyed Christians went on talking about the coming of the Antichrist, and even him sitting in the Temple. Which is ridiculous. The idea there would ever be another Temple or even an Israel was ridiculous for 2000 years. And yet when we finally have Israel and the readying to build the Temple people still are impatient. "You're so stupid there will never be another Israel nation!" Oops. "There's never gonna be another Temple". Uh oh. "There's not really going to be 10 Kings." Hmm. "There's not literally going to be a false prophet calling fire down from Heaven." Well... "There's not actually going to be a man sitting in the Temple declaring himself God." Uhhh.... "It's not like people are actually going to come to Jerusalem from all over the world to worship the Antichrist." I mean... "There's not ACTUALLY going to be a physical Mark of the Beast." Oooooh. "There's not really going to be flying demon scorpions stinging people." What's that on your shirt? "We're not LITERALLY going to meet Jesus in the sky." Dave... we're in the sky right now. "There's not going to be a LITERAL Kingdom of Heaven, stupid." It's going to be like this for eternity huh? Oy vey.
>>12911 A third temple could not be the temple in which the Antichrist declares himself to be God, because it is said he does so within the temple of God, which a third temple would not be, Jewry being a false religion.
>>12912 Okay Dave, we'll see.
>>12913 Who's Dave?
>>12951 He's an idiot, lovable idiot, sure, but. What can you do.
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>>12991 These arguments have been answered dozens of times over. >Trinity is not borrowed from the pagans! (bible.ca) https://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-pagan.htm >Is the Trinity Pagan? (InspiringPhilosophy) https://yewtu.be/watch?v=xAcDV270D_0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAcDV270D_0
>>12991 >>13002 There they are, there they go again, arguing about nothing. How can you guys argue about something that is never addressed once in the Bible. You know why Paul never says "Remember God is three persons in one." It's because even the Corinthians weren't as malnourished as this. We don't need to have this discussion there is no such thing as the trinity doctrine. Everyone knows what the Son Father and Holy Spirit is. Trinity means those three things that's where the discussion ends. But no, it's not where it ends and it never will be. Of course.
>>13003 > Everyone knows what the Son Father and Holy Spirit is. Trinity means those three things that's where the discussion ends That doesn't explain what they are, dude. It's not a minor issue.
>>13003 >How can you guys argue about something that is never addressed once in the Bible. What, you mean the very being of God? I don't know how you managed to read the bible without ever noticing God, but He revealed Himself to us. We were sent with a gospel to all men, that by faith in the Son of God on whom the Holy Spirit rested they might have eternal life. Therefore anyone who does not preach a gospel of the Son, or His God, or their Holy Spirit preaches a different gospel, which is not another. >that's where the discussion ends No, that's not where it ended because Satan has not been idle. His agents twisted this fundamental truth to his destruction and theirs, and we must oppose them or else be condemned with them.
>>13010 >>13011 ...Still not talking about anything. What is up with you guys. "That doesn't explain what they are?" You don't know who Jesus is? You don't know who the Holy Spirit is? Well, I guess that certainly isn't good indeed. "It's not a minor issue." You're right.... it's literally NOT an issue. At all. Zero. I guess if you don't know what the Holy Spirit is yeah that's a problem but assuming most Christians know that Jesus is the word of God and is God.... I don't know I guess people don't read the Bible. But the real problem is people love pretending to argue. I don't know why you guys can't see what you're doing.
>>13012 And don't reply to my post either of you. I'm not getting involved again trying to explain this to you on this board. It's a waste of time. I've tried so hard many times and the trinity-unitarian guys just I don't know if you guys will ever get it. No one else is confused but you guys. None of this is in the Bible it has nothing to do with anything. It is nosens... aaah but it's pointless. I have very little hope you guys will ever stop. Nobody is confused. The Spirit of God and Word of God and the Father are all throughout the Bible, they exist. It's not confusing it's not complicated. They all exist as God. God can do this. God can have a daughter who hates him but is still God if he wanted. God can be 27 spirits and a pile of mashed potatoes with it's own will at the same time if he wanted to... He can do anything. He takes the form of the Spirit, Son and Father all at the same time anytime anywhere... Adafgfdgfhgfhgsd baaaaah. You guys have got melted jelly brains! "B-b-b-but some people think Jesus was just like an angel or good teacher." Nothing to do with trinity-unity whatever nonsense that's just someone who hasn't read the scriptures. What you guys argue about and for some reason you just can't see it is... nothing. It's so insane! What goes through your minds! But all this is in vain. You'll still continue well have fun with that. Bible clearly tells you God is one and clearly tells you who Jesus is, the spirit the Father.. just. Bananas. You guys are... Bananas.
>>13013 Jesus says the Lord your God is one. He never says three persons in one. However, if you want to say God is three persons in one because you read the Bible and noticed that, good for you, you do that. Holy Spirit yep that's one. Jesus Father okay. Yeah you can call those persons and they're one okay. It. Is. Not. A. Doctrine. I'm sorry you guys have decided this thing which is never once addressed in the Bible because it is so obvious, I'm sorry you've decided it is the most important thing in the world to desperately try to understand when the Bible just lays it out in black and white. We can never understand the whole nature of God. But if you don't know who Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are, I don't know what to tell you. They exist, they have a purpose for existing which is laid out in the Bible. The Father is the one who supplied the Son with his Words and same with the Holy Spirit who speaks truth from the Father. "Well how can they each have different like roles and stuff and do they not already have all the same information." Let me ask you, how did God create the universe. How does God forget people's sins. How do we exist. How can God be visible and invisible at the same time. He just does it. I can't imagine how much the person regrets it. You know the person who said "Jesus Father Spirit. That's three things, trinity." Poor sap, little did he know. "I just want to better understand the nature of God you know brooo~ how it all operates yo dog! What's the relationship between these three things homie!" Sure you do. Yeah that's what it's all about. Well again, is there ANY confusion at all about that. I've never heard a single person who was ever confused, even slightly. And if you bring up once again that some people don't believe Jesus is God I'll... not go to your church anymore. That's how upset I'll be. Stop fighting over whether to use the word trinity or not it's childish. You acknowledge the existence of three things which obviously exist. Okay. "Trinity has PAGAN origins!!!" It's a short way of saying Father Son Spirit!!!! People write entire articles about this I can't believe it it's so insane who are these people!
>>13014 I think I'm gonna write an entire article about how God created the universe. Yeah I know the Bible says he spoke it into existence by the Word but like... dude. My doctrine is basically that he spoke to the Word and then the Word itself spoke bro, rather than speaking through that's really just pagan broooo! Whaaat? Gimmie some skin! I'm gonna write an article right now!!!! OOOOH LOOK AT ME GO!... I'm wasting time too just like you guys woooo! I'm hiding this thread hahaha. I just can't stand it I don't know why. It's crazy to me it's crazy.
>>13015 I think the problem is you aren't a Christian. I think that's why you don't care about truth, and why you don't seem to know who God is. >And if you bring up once again that some people don't believe Jesus is God I'll... not go to your church anymore. That's how upset I'll be. Stop fighting over whether to use the word trinity or not it's childish Well how about this then, friend: if you do not believe the truths of God described in the ancient creeds then not only will you be excluded from any Christian church, but cast out of the very kingdom of God and thrown into the pits of hell to be burned forever for your unbelief and worship of other gods.
>>13014 Use "Godhead" instead, that's actually in the Bible and it doesn't originate from Babylon.
>>13055 The uses of Godhead in the KJV are actually for three different Greek words.
I think the trinity is most important because of Christs dual nature as God and as Man. God The Father is not a man but Jesus Christ is. Yet at the same time they are both God. Without the doctrine of the trinity this is not possible and the thing that sets Christianity apart from Islam and Judaism is the acceptance of Jesus Christ not only as a prophet but as God in the flesh. The partial polytheism of hinduism would imply that we are all God to a lesser degree which would be heresy because God is perfect but I am imperfect. The nature of The Holy Ghost/The Holy Spirit I am less certain of but it seems to me that He is the force that draws us closer to God, the innate hunger humanity has for ascension. A part of God that remains with us even in our fallen state which draws us away from God. Thus denial of The Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin because to do so is to never seek God at all. This is why I think The Trinity is essential to the Christian worldview. >nb4 the trinity makes no logical sense God, being the architect of reality is not bound by the laws of logic and so He can outright break the laws of logic and be three totally separate beings while at the same time being one singular being. Therefore the doctrine of The Trinity can only be understood by faith.
>>13121 At least it's actually from the Bible, unlike the Babylonian trinity.
In the beginning, Me and God existed. Then god created the universe. Then he created jesus. Then he created the souls to be put into human bodies. Eventually he sent jesus to guide the humans away from the many false gods and towards their one true god/creator. The "holy spirit" is a metaphor for the connection between you and your creator. No matter what you do, you'll make it into heaven, because you are only here on earth to grow from a seed into a full soul.

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