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Should one convert for pragmatic reasons? Anonymous 06/09/2022 (Thu) 04:24:00 No.12470
Hello /christian/, I have the following problem: Currently, I live in an Orthodox country. I am Catholic and firmly believe in the truthfulness of the Church. I have respect for the Orthodox Church but it seems to me like a form of proto-Protestantism with the way it dumbed down certain important aspects of the Church, such as: >sole focus on iconography but no statues (less effort) >some church buildings constructed like an afterthought >conflating national identity with the Church >not welcoming to potential conversos >as good as non-existent proselytizing General issues such as: >divorce allowed >contraception allowed >disregarding the supreme authority of the papacy >"uncreated light" theology >cannot stop seething about Catholics while Catholics don't even think about any misdeeds from the Orthodox Good things about it: >most authentic branch of the Church >no effeminate clergy >celibacy is not a must >local parishes everywhere where I am >you always find a couple of truly devoted Orthodox believers >sense of community While I believe in the absolute truthfulness of the Catholic faith, it is an isolating experience not being among faithful and not partaking in liturgy. Having a circle of secular friends is easy to have but there needs to be a balance with having a faithful community. Plus, finding a good wife is only possible in a church through the community. Needless to mention I am a Latin Rite Catholic, any form of Novus Ordo, even Byzantine Mass, is torturous. Is it allowed to begome Ordodox in these circumstances?
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>>12470 > sole focus on iconography I don't see why this is an issue. Iconography is simply the artistic style of the Byzantine tradition. There's nothing theologically wrong with statues from an Orthodox perspective, it's just not the aesthetic of the east. > some church buildings constructed like an afterthought Non-statement. Moving on. > conflating national identity with the Church. This is actually a heresy of the Orthodox Church called ethnophyletism. Our faith goes before our ethnicity and what matters most is our Orthodoxy, not our Greek-ness or Russian-ness. Any Orthodox Christian who cares more about their ethnicity is misguided at best and a heretic at worst. > not welcoming to potential conversos If you mean that they aren't welcoming to potential converts, I have personally never experienced that as an Orthodox convert myself. I suppose it's on a church-by-church basis, but pretty much every Orthodox church will be welcoming to inquirers. > as good as non-existent proselytizing I dunno WHAT you're talking about man. Orthodoxy has exploded in the last decade or so, hence why the presence on the internet of young Orthodox Christians is so high these days. > divorce allowed We allow divorce in the instance of sexual immorality, and this is because Christ Himself permitted it. And who are we to disobey Christ? > "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, *saving for the cause of fornication,* causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery" (Matthew 5:32). > contraception allowed Not even true. Moving on. > disregarding the supreme authority of the papacy The papal doctrines that the Roman church currently holds are an innovation invented towards the end of the first millennium. The fathers all conclude on this point, and the Roman pontiff does not correlate with the early Church's teachings. Read "Two Paths" by Michael Whelton for a thorough refutation of the papacy. > "uncreated light" theology Do you mean the Essence-Energy Distinction? Uniate / "Byzantine Catholics" accept this theology too so I don't know what the issue is. > cannot stop seething about Catholics while Catholics don't even think about any misdeeds from the Orthodox Projection. Moving on. > Most authentic branch of the Church That tends to happen when you preserve the doctrines and liturgics of the early Church. > no effeminate clergy Because ours are normally married. > celibacy not a must Refer to previous answer. > local parishes everywhere I am Glory to God! > you always find a couple of truly devoted Orthodox believers Where I'm from, there are far more than a couple. > sense of community As things should be. From what I'm seeing in your points for and against Orthodoxy, anon, is that you either have internalized misconceptions of our faith, or simply misunderstand some of our teachings. I do not blame you for this, and implore you to learn more about precisely what our doctrines are. I don't know what country it is you're living in, but where I'm from I have a vibrant Orthodox parish I am a part of. Most are even converts to the faith, demonstrating the widespread growth of the Orthodox Christian faith. I do not write this in bad faith, but only that you may be inclined to learn these things. God bless you on your journey.
You should become Christian instead.
>>12470 There isn't one single mention of "God" in your post, but you mention man-made institutions and man-made organized religions multiple times. Why don't you think about that for a second.
>>12473 >Non-statement. Moving on. It reflects the perception of the people their and lack of understanding for sacred things. >I dunno WHAT you're talking about man. In the last millenium the Orthodox Church did little to no proselytizing. What you mention is a recent phenomenon thanks to internet-culture. >We allow divorce in the instance of sexual immorality, and this is because Christ Himself permitted it. And who are we to disobey Christ? That's a good point. >Not even true. Moving on. It is allowed in certain circumstances if the priest gives his blessing. >Do you mean the Essence-Energy Distinction? It is not part of Catholic dogma and Byzantine Catholics are not to be taken as authoritative. I talk about the doctrine of "uncreated light" at the transfiguration of Christ. >Projection It is not. Catholics don't think about Orthodox, and if they do, it is positive. >That tends to happen when you preserve the doctrines and liturgics of the early Church. You did not have the same "innovation" as Vatican II and large-scale infiltration. Your post is too emotional, but I'd like to know why you became Orthodox instead of Catholic and if you attend an American Orthodox Church.
>>12470 >sole focus on iconography but no statues (less effort) I think they did this in accordance with the commandment against graven images.
>>12470 Ultimately we become orthodox for eternal life, salvation. Which is a practical goal. Your question is more like "should we convert for worldly reasons". No. Because then you wouldn't be converting. You would just be using orthodoxy as an identity or philosophy. So your question is non-sensical. Orthodoxy is not a religion you adopt or identity you take up, its a way of life, its about forming a direct personal relationship with Christ. So if you manage to form that relationship, then by default you aren't doing it for worldly reasons. But does forming a relationship with Christ on an individual and collective scale help with worldly things. Yes, of course the risk of persecution is there, but Orthodoxy is the best worldview for "pragmatism", real feminism, nationalism, enviromentalism, libertarianism, communism. The moral goals of each one of these worldview is best achieved through orthodoxy. For example, the best way to preserve a nation is to make it christian, have moral neighbours, moral schools, companies, military, rulers, etc... Then you wont need immigrants and won't need to migrate, and the few immigrants would take up your values not subvert or dominate your culture. etc... The best testament to that is Byzantium which is the longest living and most successful empire which only collapsed as a result of persecution, external warfare not internal issues. Catholicism is ghey, its muslim/atheist christianity. Truth is grounded in Human reason, not revelations. You know God as a neccessary essence through your reasons than through the person of Christ who reveals himself to you. http://svgur.com/i/g2N.svg
>>12513 there is no commandment against venerating icons of holy things and people. But in orthodoxy statues are not used, mainly because they are inferior to icons. There is less meaning conveyed through a statue and its a more realistic replica rather than an image of the thing being portrayed. On statues: Christ Himself also said to His disciples: You are the light of the world. Indeed, the words luminary, enlightener, radiant, and their variations, pepper the hymnography of saints. Saints are partakers of the Divine Light, and it is this Light which an icon portrays, the Light which comes from within, the all-encompassing Light where no shadow can be cast, and which, in an icon, culminates in the halo, usually golden, which surrounds the saint's face. A skilled iconographer can express this inner light by careful application of paint and leaf. Coupled with the flatness of the composition, the abstracted, non-naturalistic portrayal, and the deliberate use of inverse perspective which gives the opposite effect to linear perspective, a well-executed and well-composed icon is indeed capable of portraying and expressing heavenly realities. By contrast, a statue is, by its nature, solid, opaque, volumetric, and, with its three dimensions, shadows are inevitable. It remains earthbound, of this world, not the next. A statue simply cannot portray the inner radiance of the saint as paint applied with skill to a gessoed board can. Indeed, in most non-Orthodox churches I have visited, the statues there are lit by spotlights or similar external illumination, an act which is surely the complete antithesis of the inner light which an icon easily and effortlessly expresses. Even icons painted in a naturalistic style, with linear perspective, shadows cast by the figures and features in the composition, and modeling which reproduces volume, are, strictly speaking, deficient as objects of veneration. These speak of time, place and space as seen through earthly eyes and parameters. Yet, in heaven, there is no time as we know it; there is no night and day, but the Light that never sets, the eternal Day that never ends, where all that is earthly, mortal and corruptible has been transfigured, transformed and perfected. It is these things, and more, which the icon seeks to portray and express, something which a 3D statue is manifestly incapable of doing.
>>12473 >because ours are married No, its because ours are not gay child rapists. Not being able to marry does attract a lot of lustful pedophiles and gays in catholicism, but celibacy in of itself is not wrong. just uncommon. So all these celibate catholic clergy tend to be homosexuals not ascetics.
>>12538 >>12539 >>12540 Goys, let's stay focused on the thread topic and not divert into theological debates. There are other threads you can go to.
>>12567 holy shit that is literally me
>>12567 even down to the haircut, facial hair, and dress style
>>12567 No one told me that memes could be so real or so accurate.
OP here. Can anybody help out?
Mod, can you delete and ban all the off-topic posts? For 30+ posts it's been derailing and there are plenty other threads to contain their autism. t. OP
>>12741 which posts do you want me to delete (list them)
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>Currently, I live in an Orthodox country. I am Catholic So you're a pseudo-Orthodox Christian and just haven't accepted that the Pope is a first among equals at the table of Patriarchs. >sole focus on iconography but no statues The coloring and design of Orthodox Iconography is very specific in order to ensure you are seeing the image as "the person in god's glory" as a spiritual reminder of what you should do, while statues lose that spiritual aspect unless you want them looking like colorful Ancient Greek/Roman statues at which point you're practicing paganism in the church. >Some church buildings constructed like an afterthought Because they are. In Orthodoxy, the community is the church. Hospitals, schools, and other public buildings built by the church should show god's glory in their architecture, but the church itself is meant to be an afterthought. In the case of European Orthodox churches, If you happen to be in a country that suffered under the USSR's satanic reign, they would actively persecute Christians so when the local village ignored the Soviets and had a church anyways, it was meant to not stand out much. >conflating national identity with the Church The Diocese are a regional administrative structure not a nationalist structure. In former soviet countries, the soviets intentionally spread that seed and it's still difficult to purge it. During WWI and WWII Orthodox Christians in future soviet countries sided with the Germans because embracing the national identity ideas were the only way they kept the soviets from genociding them. More importantly Christianity went hand-in-hand with your regional identity prior to the schism. >not welcoming to potential conversos Plenty welcoming, you just have to do your own research instead of expecting to be spoonfed. >as good as non-existent proselytizing Are you high? The Orthodox church has strict requirements to be a proselytizer (you must speak the language of the country you are traveling to on your mission fluently and understand their culture on a near-native level) so while they don't go door-to-door like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, it is a well-respected occupation in the church. Laymen aren't expected to proselytize because it's assumed they don't know how to transfer their knowledge of the church to another culture. >divorce allowed Blatantly false. Only in cases of adultery in which the victim who was NTR'd may request one, and cases of prolonged (several years) absence in which the spouse absent is considered to have broken their vows. They don't consider prolonged absence by occupation, such as the military, fishing, etc. to count, only active absence from one's spouse since these two cases indicate betrayal of the vow. Widows are allowed to remarry (unless they were married to a clergy member), but there's a joke in regards to these restrictions that the church blesses the first marriage, performs the second, tolerates the third, and forbids the fourth. >contraception allowed This is disingenuous. Contraception was originally allowed among married couples with children in order to ensure that mothers survived until the oldest children were old enough to take care of the youngest children, since until germ theory took off in the mid 1900s, 1 in 4 mothers would die giving birth due to complications. Contraception still plays a similar role in the church today (they want you to have kids but they want you to space them out rather than popping out a new kid every year until you stop since they want every child to receive a high level of care from their parents since this is the proper way to raise a child in the faith). Depending on who you ask, there's also a fine line stating that only non-abortifactants (condoms and the like) may be used, not birth control. And you still need the blessing of your local priest/elder before you are allowed to use them. >disregarding the supreme authority of the papacy It's about as supreme as the cow pies in my compost pile. >"uncreated light" theology Palamism is gaining favor in the Catholic church and more importantly I'm not one to say that every Orthodox Saint was wrong when they experienced it. >cannot stop seething about Catholics It's bantz at best. >while Catholics don't even think about any misdeeds from the Orthodox Maybe because you were the only ones committing them. Maybe because the Catholic church has lost most spirituality since Vatican 2.0 when you tried to have an ecumenical council with only 17% of the church leadership present.
>>12742 Delete nothing
>>12747 >Blatantly false. Only in cases of adultery in which the victim who was NTR'd may request one, and cases of prolonged (several years) absence in which the spouse absent is considered to have broken their vows. How did Mr. Orthodox Chad himself Vladimir Putin get divorced when he was the one committing adultery
>>12768 The same reason religion and state were tied together for years. Nobody likes to admit it but when the ruler is scratching your back and funding the orphanage you don't flip him off for being a sinner. This is true across cultures. A polite society understands that being sinless is an ideal and not a reality. I know very little about it, but from what I know they were married for 30 years; their children are grown up, his ex-wife has reached menopause and he still supports her, and he had only been with her for a few days a year prior to the divorce. I doubt the Orthodox church approves of their situation, but it is tolerable in that the pragmatic institution of marriage was served. Plus the crap with the gymnast is celebrity gossip IIRC. Won't commit to looking it up since I don't care, but I don't recall there being any hard evidence when I had researched it years ago.
>>12741 >>12742 This is the problem with having a generic "Christian" board. Someone will ask a basic question, they will get totally contradicting responses. Responders will start defending their stance and it will devolve into a debate about which denom is right.
>>12758 there ya go
>>12779 You have sinned.
>>12780 OP asked for off topic posts to be removed, i removed them. If you dont like it then dont post off topic posts in threads
>can't even have discussions on this board anymore rip /christian/
>>12784 >he comes here to "discuss" tsk tsk tsk, big mistake.
>>12784 you can discuss just know that theres a risk of your discussion being removed if it interferes with OP's thread. and theres no rule saying you cant make a thread about the issue
Edited last time by AntichristHater on 06/14/2022 (Tue) 22:54:06.
>removed if it interferes with OP's thread. But it doesn't interfere with the thread. Deleting everything in the thread interferes with the thread. >you can discuss >your discussion being removed These things are mutually exclusive You have killed this thread. This will very quickly metastasize into killing the board.
>>12792 >But it doesn't interfere with the thread. if the person who made the thread thinks it interferes with the thread then it probably interferes with the thread. >you can discuss >your discussion being removed >These things are mutually exclusive if youre afraid of your discussion being removed (which likely wont happen anyways) then just transfer it to another thread then crosspost it to the original one you were in, then you dont have worry about the OP of the other thread getting mad and asking your discussion to be removed (which probably wont happen anyways) >You have killed this thread. This will very quickly metastasize into killing the board. people will adapt and like i said this is one instance of post removal specifically requested by the owner of the thread, i doubt this will be a widespread thing.
>>12787 Here's an archive of the thread before the purge: https://archive.ph/a42lC
>>12795 thanks
>>12792 >You have killed this thread. This will very quickly metastasize into killing the board. I mean the thread's still up
OP here. I decided against converting, let alone considering it. I delved deeper into the Eastern Churches and found out that the theological and christological condition is worse than I thought. Vladimir Solovyev wrote a good deal about the sorry state of the "Orthodox" churches. For all Protestants and Catholics who consider converting to Orthodoxy: don't. There is a reason why the Eastern Church uses a reactionary term to describe itself. Protestants, become Catholic, and Catholics, stay Catholic. God bless you all. Pax
OP here. I decided against converting, let alone considering it. I delved deeper into the Catholic Churches and found out that the theological and christological condition is worse than I thought. For all Protestants and Orthodox who consider converting to Catholicism: don't. There is a reason why the Catholic Church uses a reactionary term to describe itself. Protestants, stay Protestant, and Orthodox, stay Orthodox. God bless you all.
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>>13845 Yeah but wheres the meme about orthodox?
>>13845 none of the churches or denominations have anything in common with the traditions of the early Christians or the Church fathers.
>>13861 Yes, they do. Which is the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church expands and adds, but never changes. "Orthodoxy" is stuck in the first 1000 years of Christendom, apparently, while having adapted theological innovations that nobody from the Church Fathers would've condoned or believed.
>>13865 >while having adapted theological innovations that nobody from the Church Fathers would've condoned or believed such as?
>>13865 >Yes, they do. Which is the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church expands and adds, but never changes. the only thing catolics expand are their priest buttholes, you guys are full of fags
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>>13865 > The Catholic Church expands and adds, but never changes Anathema. You added the filioque to the Creed and created a new and false faith in direct violation to the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus, you forged documents giving your schismatic bishop nearly unlimited power, you pillaged and destroyed Constantinople, your popes kiss Qur'ans and pray with Muslims and Jews, and you directly violate Scripture which teaches us to "Do not move the ancient landmark that your fathers have set" (Proverbs 22:28) or the fact that the deposit of faith was complete in the beginning, as said by the apostle Jude - "for the faith entrusted once for all to the saints" (Jude 3). To say that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (the Orthodox Church) is "is stuck in the first 1000 years of Christendom" is the greatest compliment you could have given the Church founded by Christ.
>>13865 the only traditions the Catholic Church inherited was those of pagan religions. Protestants never made any attempt at looking back at or for the writings of the Church fathers or early traditions and Orthodox do... whatever the hell Orthodox do. All churches and denominations suck, why? Because they have nothing in common with the original churches. Instead of being placing where congregants can sit down and study and learn and debate the Bible and rejoice in God they are instead places where a preacher or priest stands up before a crowd and talks down to you. Few know the Bible as it originally was and few are making an attempt at learning because its easier for a preacher/priest to give you his un-nuanced and often unfounded hot takes on the Bible than it is to learn. if theres one thing i admire Jews for its their schuls, atleast they know and understand their religion.
>>13895 > Because they have nothing in common with the original churches. Instead of being placing where congregants can sit down and study and learn and debate the Bible and rejoice in God Christianity is not a book club / debate club.
>>13895 At least your honest that your a Jew and not a Christian. >>13896 Pretty much this. A lot of protestant churches really are just social clubs. Trying to understand and interpret the bible without some kind of authority is fruitless.
>>13900 >if daddy pedo priest isnt fucking me in the ass i wont obey God yikes
>>13900 >Pretty much this. A lot of protestant churches really are just social clubs. That's explicitly what cathodoxy is, they see all their ornate traditions and feel a connection with their community, it's literally a social club that almost completely ignores the word of God and teaches for doctrines the commandments of men. I'm not saying all Protestant churches are good, most are in apostasy and don't even protest your fake cults, but to act like Catholics and Orthos don't do it primarily for tradition and community (rather than for God) is a lie (otherwise they wouldn't have so many damnable idols and wouldn't so willingly break God's commandments). >Trying to understand and interpret the bible without some kind of authority is fruitless. Christ should be the head of your church, not the pope or patriarch. God gives understanding through the Holy Spirit. You'd know this if you studied scriptures at all rather than letting someone else tell you what it says, you people just flinging feces at all who oppose your fake Christian idolatrous cults simply because there are apostates among their denominations. You don't even bring valid criticism against them, you just lump them all together as "heckin ebil heretics" for opposing your church tradition (not even for their apostasy most of the time) meanwhile your tradition goes contrary to God's Word and Laws and Commandments. It's really not a Christian movie and I'd even suggest not watching it, but your cults remind me of the baddie from "book of eli" movie with Denzel Washington, trying to gain monopoly over the Word of God for worldly power and gain. There's a good line or two from the baddie about this, and that's explicitly what cathodox wants to do through their tradition, and that's even moreso what they did when they persecuted the saints for owning a bible, preaching the gospel, or not bowing to your church "fathers" and their tradition.
>>13925 >God gives understanding through the Holy Spirit. You'd know this if you studied scriptures Yawn. Prots tried all of this during the Reformation and all came to a million interpretations of Scripture, endlessly creating new schisms and heresies. If Scripture was so clear, and if the Holy Spirit was really guiding you, this wouldn't happen. Meanwhile, the Orthodox Church remains unchanged from the time of the Apostles. Your meme heresies of Sola Scriptura are not even Biblical. You are preaching traditions of men, not the apostolic deposit of faith once and for all committed by God to the saints.
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>>13935 You're not even worth "debating" because you don't even know the scriptures close to well enough and even if you did, you'd just parrot doctrine from your fake Christian cult because going against the interpretation of your church "fathers" is a sin for you cultists. You teach for doctrine the commandments of men and you dare project that onto me, I preach the Bible, the Word of God, and you are a liar. You don't lean on God for understanding, you lean on your own wisdom and your church "fathers". Both you and the catholics twist scripture to claim monopoly over interpreting scripture because you lot are of your father the devil.
>>13935 >Meanwhile, the Orthodox Church remains unchanged from the time of the Apostles >Palamism >hesychasm >soul is in the navel >uncreated energies >uncreated light at Mt. Tabor is inside you >subject to Caesar for 1000 years and running >taken over by the Mongolians and the Ottomans and suppressed for centuries >"not punishment from God" >like the Protestants cling to the "early church" or the Old Testament, the Orthodox cling to the first 1000 years before the schism but new innovations follow >because of oppression and natonalism almost no proselytizing >divorce three times >negative theology when you convert "I renounce XYZ (le ebil babists)" >reactionary term to describe itself "right faith", like prots "we protests le ebil babists" >goes into schism with other national branches because of politics >raped by Communism after being raped by the Ottomans You can't make this up.
>>13935 >Prots tried all of this during the Reformation and all came to a million interpretations of Scripture, endlessly creating new schisms and heresies Do you have a list of these millions of heresies?
>>13925 What you call the "holy spirit" is actually just your ego.
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>>13956 Legalist cope >but I read the catechism once I know God better than you!!!
>>13955 >Do you have a list of these millions of heresies? Lutheranism, Zwinglianism, Calvinism, Anglicanism, Anabaptism [Hutterites, Amish, Mennonites, etc.], Socinianism, etc. Just a few.
>>13938 You are not worth debating. Your entire paradigm is inconsistent and thus self-refuting. Sola Scriptura is neither Biblical, nor can it affirm how it justifies its own canon on its own standards. It is a doctrine which is parasitical on the tradition of the Church, from which Scripture is known. And on top of this, Protestants don't even consistently adhere to Sola Scriptura, since the Reformation was founded on a doubt that many parts of Scripture were even Scripture at all, even the words of James, Jude and Revelation, because it refuted the damnable heresies of Luther and other heretics.
>>13984 Begone satan.
>>13982 Wow, that's a million alright. Especially seeing as the Anabaptists and Socinians don't even belong there since they rejected sola scriptura, and Calvinism and Zwinglianism are the same thing. Repent of your false witness. >>13984 >You are not worth debating We must wonder whether anyone who values the truth will put any weight into this brute dogmatic assertion which is explicitly made without pretending to argue for it. You, Grecopapist, as all papists do, have no greater argument for the false prophets to whom you have enslaved yourself other then to mindlessly command "obey!", but for a Christian man we have but one God and one Lord, and we cannot give fealty to another. >Sola Scriptura is neither Biblical, nor can it affirm how it justifies its own canon on its own standards This worthless assertion is made without justification and is likewise rejected without justification. >It is a doctrine which is parasitical on the tradition of the Church, from which Scripture is known. This is a testament to how a papist views the authority of scripture, calling it a "parasite" on his false prophets. But as we have established elsewhere against you the authority of scripture is not contingent upon the subjective knowledge of the believer, nor is it hung upon mere men in any way, shape or form, but entirely and exclusively proceeds from its divine nature as the very words of God, for as the voice of God speaking to us it carries His authority just as much as when He was heard thundering from heaven. I repeat that any man who would dare to arrogate to himself the power to authorize scripture is Antichrist, standing in the temple of God declaring himself to be God. >the Reformation was founded on a doubt that many parts of Scripture were even Scripture at all, even the words of James, Jude and Revelation It was not founded on it at all as this questioning (not removal) of those books was exclusive to Martin Luther, and was below the notice of most anybody except for papists like yourself hunting for excuses to slander him.
>>13990 Begone satan.
>>13895 >if theres one thing i admire Jews for its their schuls, atleast they know and understand their religion. Based and Judeapilled, us gentiles we are quite neurotic and stupid.
>>15001 >us gentiles we are quite neurotic and stupid. in a way yes, although i think its less neuroticism and more so the fact that nobody teaches the Bible anymore, most churches just skim through a handful of key chapters often related to the gospel in some way. The art of Christian philosophy and Christian occultism (as in the literal meaning of the word not pagan/satanism) is long lost in many ways.
All this constant arguing and quibbling over the tiniest of things! No wonder Christianity is dying when its adherents, its "believers" (dogmatic fools without wisdom and certainly without God) are more concerned with small matters of doctrine rather than having genuine faith, living rightly, and spreading the gospel. The pagans don't argue over their faiths: they are quite amicable with each other! The Satanists are united in their goals for the destruction of all that is good. But the Christian, it seems, hates his fellow Christian more than he hates those who seek to steal, kill and destroy.
>>15015 >are more concerned with small matters of doctrine small matters of doctrine are important but youre right we need to stop arguing over stupid stuff and actually start working toward a goal.

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